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 Abortion: Right or Wrong

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PostSubject: Abortion: Right or Wrong   Abortion: Right or Wrong I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 02, 2009 10:02 am

I'm assuming the Opinions board is for debates too? I wanted to hear your opinions even though I'm double-standarding this whole conversation.

...............Rules

  1. Even if the majority of us agree, if you disagree, then post YOUR opinion. Don't let your first post be persuaded by other's thoughts.
  2. Be nice. Calling people vulgar names or making fun of them doesn't make a debate a debate, it makes an argument.
  3. Please state WHY you believe it's wrong or right. Don't just put "I hate it" why?
  4. Be rational, this goes with number 3. If you decide to let your religion into this, state WHY it is a valid argument. Don't put "Cause god said so." Well, said what? Why that? Same goes for scientific posts.
  5. Link to places that show where you got your information from. If you state a baby is alive when it is first conceived then post a link to show us that 'fact' you stated is true.
  6. Please use the links to your information in a [?] format. The ? being a question mark. This makes it easier and less disorganized for the readers.

    Following these rules will make this debate a nice discussion as well as an opinionated place.

ABORTION

I personally think abortion is right in all cases, right until the baby is 11 weeks old or past that. At the 10th week the baby's brain starts to develope, not fully developed but the process has begun. [?]
This clearly shows the baby, before 11 weeks (Two months), will not feel the pain the abortion process does, nor wil the baby feel ahted, saddned, or angy that the mother is aborting it. Why? The brain isn't even being made yet until week ten, and even then, it's in development.
It is also said that back in the day, Christians would sacrifice a lamb to God to repent for their sins.

"Hebrews 9:13-14 says, "The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!" " - [?]

Taking someone else's life to help yours. How is that better than someone killing of something that is yet to be alive? And even if a Christian says "God puts life in all things when concieved" that still contradicts the prior statement. God also smitened all the animals in Egypt and the first born son of the pharoh. Which, the kid and the animals themselves did nothing to deserve such punishment.
Reminds you when the Christians say "That baby did nothing to deserve that!"
And it seems the Bible 'changes' through the centuries. Trying to fit in the laws good side. I would love to go in detail but that'd get this paragraph off-topic.
So the baby, scientifically is equal to that of a celery stick, and the act of denying the right to remove this unliving thing is hypocritical in religious views. If Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism both sacrifice or sacrificed something in their time. Yes people and things change but some things 'change' to be accepted so more join the religion. Nobody would join a church that accepted child abuse (Stoning a bad child), so let's just rearrange what our book/text says so more join. Funny thing how they 'choose' certain rules that can still be used today and other's not, even if it's from the same era.

Next, the woman's part. If the lady is raped, how's it fair or her fault for being raped and being forced to give birth to a baby she DOESN'T want? The obvious thing is that she'll kill it when it's born out of hatred or pity, leave it on the streets or in a garbage can alive (Leads to number one if the baby isn't helped), she keeps it but never looks after it, or she gives it to an adoption center which we all know isn't peaches and cream and rainbows. (Will be explained in next paragraph)
The woman could die of labor. If the woman's life is on the line, I'd rather her, a productive human being, someone ALREADY alive, live rather than something unliving. Even if she isn't productive, she's still alive. A conscious is active. She can feel pain.
The woman's economic and educational life is in jeapordy. If the teen or woman's education and economical status is going to be corrupt, how will giving birth to a baby solve anything? It makes NO sense. If she gives up school or her job, WHAT does she have to support the baby? And if she doesn't, the baby is growing up with a care taker. It never gets to know it's mother because in the morning she's at school and at night she's doing her job. I fail to see how that's a perfect life for a baby. Giving birth to it was sending the baby to Hell, it was better off NOT having to live that lifestyle. We all know how hard poverty can be on kids and parents. Worrying about bills and food being on the table, worrying if you will be able to keep a roof over you and your kids' head, worrying about your kid being accepted while they're at school IF you have enough money to pay for their education to get them in school. It's really hard.
The condom or pills failed to work. How is it fair for a woman who took super care into not being pregnant, get pregnant and having to be forced to, like the rape victim scenario, give birth to a child she doesn't want? It's not fair at all.

Now if the mother decides not to keep the baby and put it up for adoption, we ALL know most adoption homes or foster homes aren't cutesy butterflies. In reality, the most adoptions that occur are healthy, young, white babies. And it't not for the baby's sake, it's for the parents' which is disgusting. You'll have fifty parents fighting over a baby who is white, healthy and very young while the teenagers or babies with illnesses watch in jealousy. PArents want kids for THEMSELVES, to make themselves feel like parents instead of helping the child live a better life or to show the child love. It's as if the kids are commodities at a "Half-Off!" sale in a store rather than human beings suffering in an adoption home. In foster care they boot you out at the age eighteen, sometimes seventeen [?], leaving you with little or no items. Not even a home. Wow! Such a nice life for a kid y'know!? It was good to make him be born into a place where he'd be put into foster care or an adoption home, then shown little education, the high possibility of showing mental, physical, or emotional problems, and then booted out. I hope he loves life!
What's not fair is a lot of adoption or foster kids show problems of that I listed above. Which then makes adopters NOT want them. "Oh that kid twitches...ugh...not that one he's shaking all over." and it's such a sad thing. Picking the kids out as if they were damn clothing.

All in all, if where you hail from is NOT a welcoming place for a baby, or the actions needed for taking care of one is heading for the worse more than the greater, abort before 11 weeks. You save the child the life of pain and misery.
10 weeks is a month and two weeks. That, by far, is FAR enough time to know [?]. A few weeks for late women will be indentified by her missing her period. This should show within three weeks. The woman will be conscious that her period by far, is VERY late. She will check, it will say she's pregnant, if it fails she is relieved for another week or days, she then checks again for her period has not come and by then it should show that she's pregnant. Five weeks at the max. The cost varies but it's usually around $300-$600 [?] for the first trimester. (First trimester is 14 weeks long, 3 weeks more than what I accept)
I believe the cost should be lowered because it only makes it that much harder for teens or women to remove something unliving that will ruin theirl ife and the future baby's life.

And it only seems that the majority of people who are pro-life are religious people. The First Ammendment states the seperation of church and state. Meaning religious views CANNOT be deemed as a fact when it comes to laws. It's not fair to muslims or jews or any other religion if Christianity ONLY gets to make laws. Or any other way. So the religious people have to find another way rather than "My god/gods deem this wrong."

All in all, this is why I (In my opinion) think abortion should be kept legal.

You're opinions? Please read it all, some people on other sites never read my first post and force me to quote stuff from it or force me to repeat myself.
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SilentxMidnight
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion: Right or Wrong   Abortion: Right or Wrong I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 02, 2009 1:43 pm

Ok, a few things.

1. - Yes opinions mean debate BUT no debate will be taken out of this forum area to another because of faulty or anger between people.

2. - I am against Abortion in all cases but rape. I'm only going to write a very small, short paragraph on why. I don't like it because eventually people will start having abortions just because they think maybe my child will be gay, or maybe they will look this way and i don't want that. It's going against nature. I don't like it. In the case of rape its completely fine.

that's all i have to say for now.
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Night Owl
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion: Right or Wrong   Abortion: Right or Wrong I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 03, 2009 4:54 pm

Oh no, I didn't mean that this topic get deleted if people get angry, but I think it's a bit unfair when someone of Christian faith posts their opinion and the next poster calls them a "Christian faggot" it makes the person stray from the topic by continuing the fight with the person calling them a "Christian Faggot" or not want to return to the topic. I know this is the opinions board, but I don't think a debate really fits anywhere else because a debate calls for opinions. I asked for a debate, not a flaming argument. I want people to be civilized on this matter. If this needs o be continued let's do it through private mail, I don't want to have two almost completely different discussions here and it confusing people xD

Now back on topic with the debate.
I can understand how you feel on people wasting a perfectly good zygote because they fear it will be something to their dismay, but if it's not officially alive, I see nothing wrong. Even though I hate the idea of someone aborting a zygote because of a homophobic assumption. If it's after eleven weeks I say no. My first reason is that the child is NOW considered alive, it has a conscious (Maybe not a great one, but it still has one) and it knows its surroundings. And my second reason is it's no longer a "No harm, no foul". Since it can sense its surroundings you can bet it feels pain after those eleven weeks (Second to third trimester)
I don't understand what you mean by "Against nature" I got the impression that you are saying that since we are animals, is being from nature, it's wrong to kill the offspring, but many animal mothers OR fathers will viciously rip, maul, or kill their young if that baby is an inconvenience, and that's AFTER the baby is born. Since we, humans, are animals this could be true to us too, but people state we have a far greater conscious and intelligence from 'wild' animals. If this is stated though, natural laws really don't apply for this because with 'nature' this could easily give a mother the right to kill her child if she felt the need too, or the father if he too felt the need. If we go the "More intelligent with a greater conscious" path this shows that humans don't really follow the path of the naturalistic laws as almost all animals do.

But what if a girl protected herself, or used protection, she attempted protection, it was not she who failed, but the prescriptions given to her telling her it'd protect her that failed. I'm also getting the feeling that your implying that having sex means you want a baby, so even if you were protected it's your fault.
I got this implied thought only because your post is very vague.

Anyone else want to join? It'd be nice to have a group debate rather than a one-on-one debate xD
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion: Right or Wrong   Abortion: Right or Wrong I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 04, 2009 4:21 pm

WOOT Suspect Ninja

Hopfuly i can say somthing without starting a agument again

1. When clearifying rule number 4 you could have just said"Don't be like fox news"
2. I agree with What angela said
3.Even thoe we ARE animals it does not mean we should not have a higher moral standard.
4.There should have been a way too shorten that long ass 3page opinion.
5.Sex = Fun (Well as much as I guess) ((Depresed again)) Sad
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Night Owl
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion: Right or Wrong   Abortion: Right or Wrong I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 04, 2009 8:00 pm

What part do you agree with her? The part where she was telling me of my one rule, or her opinion on abortion?
And anyone can view morals differently. You can have a religious view and see that the zygote is born WITH a soul at conception so killing it would be immoral, or the scientific way, killing the zygote before 11 weeks is okay because it's not alive, so it's accepted, thus to people viwing it the scientific way, they see no wrong. So it's not immoral to them.
I could've but then my post would have been very vague and people could have gotten the wrong idea.
Yes sex is fun, which is why when people who protect themselves, in my opinion should not be punished with a baby they never wanted nor a teen who can't take care of a baby let alone herself. You'd put that baby in a dangerous predicament by making her have that baby.
And lawl @ Fox News comment.
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion: Right or Wrong   Abortion: Right or Wrong I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 06, 2009 4:09 pm

Look im not going too write a huge thesis on abortions I agree with her 100%
And after that I stoped reading your response because You take everything to seriously or you just hate me.Every time I post somthing all i see from you is hate responses.
Now mabe I should be a little more serious about this but this is how I deal with things(With Narsasism,and dark humor) Because life is a joke! Its ether You die for your country or your country kills you with taxes.People like you and me had to be born when world falls apart.Now if I sound like im freaking out right now I AM and the last thing I need right now is being judged by YOU.
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Night Owl
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion: Right or Wrong   Abortion: Right or Wrong I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 07, 2009 9:26 am

You, like another user on here, take things way out of proportion and take them the opposite of the meaning that was intended.
And again, like that other user on here, I am confused as to how you possibly took that offensive. Did your grandpa die too as of today? Just making sure so you don't use that against me later on so I'm viewed as the bad person.
I was not even near to being mean in that post. I have been holding my tongue of the foulest of things against you for so long. Now if you want me to be mean, I will. Gladly. But when you accuse me of being mean and rude it tends to piss me off, so I might not ask for your permission to chew your ass out.
I keep to being nice when it comes to debates, never will I get rude with someone. Why would I contradict myself and break my own debate rule?

You cannot be vague in a debate. I didn't know if you agreed with her 100% or just a bit. You stated you agreed. That was it. On what? I didn't know. You were being vague. And it didn't help me either that you said sex was fun. You gave me the impression that you didn't necessarily agree with her that abortion is only for rape victims. So I assumed that you agreed on a partial of her post.
In a debate you want to be serious, and abortion is a serious matter because the bill and law could come out at any moment declaring abortion illegal. I'd like to have a civil and serious debate about it. No hahas included.
And I'm not judging you; I was being inquisitive and yearned to understand what you meant. If you took offense to my post somehow it'd be your fault in the first place for being so vague as to confuse people to question you. Emphasis on question, not judge.



Now whenever you feel threatened in a debate, you are more likely to go, I don't know how you took offense to this at all but I don't want a fight to break out in my debate. I want this to be serious. So if you don't like this, then you may leave this debate ad chat on with other people you take less offense too
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SilentxMidnight
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion: Right or Wrong   Abortion: Right or Wrong I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 08, 2009 1:11 pm

One - I wont delete this unless it gets out of hand.

Two - no comment on human's being smarter than wild animals...i'll start another opinon area on that one....

Three - no i'm saying if you have sex and have a child, it is your own fault with or without protection. the only reason sex is needed is reproduction. besides that humans do it for pleasure yes, well if you don't want a kid don't have sex, or do something else to make sure you don't but that doen't mean you need to have an abortion for your own idiocy.

and Four- STOP ARGUING ON THINGS THAT DO NOT HAVE TO DO WITH SAID TOPIC. we are here to speak of abortions, not opinions on other members. I will permanently put you two in time out if you don't stop it!

now onward with the topic while i make a new one about human intelligence....
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sasunaru.4life
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion: Right or Wrong   Abortion: Right or Wrong I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 09, 2009 9:08 pm

um... i say its wrong

and um.... i will not be giving birth to any said children because that will be my girlfriends jo (dont ask)

and um... yeah... its wrong and... stuff
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion: Right or Wrong   Abortion: Right or Wrong I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 10, 2009 6:34 am

uncomfert!

anyway. Yeah i still think it's only right it the woman got raped. that pretty much sums it up
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion: Right or Wrong   Abortion: Right or Wrong I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 11, 2009 4:48 pm

good point angela
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion: Right or Wrong   Abortion: Right or Wrong I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 26, 2009 8:12 am

I agree with Night owl. Its not alive yet so whats so wrong about it? so what if they were stupid, yeah they shouldn't have done it, but why can't they just abort and get out of it?
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion: Right or Wrong   Abortion: Right or Wrong I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 30, 2009 10:21 am

Thank you Zanaya, and I ONLY agree to it being before eleven weeks, that's way too much time to 'not' know about it. At that time it's a celery stick, but that 'celery stick' will and can very well freak up a person's life.
If she and he (If the man decides to even stay with the girl) cannot afford to give the baby the life it needs to live WHY make it suffer a lifetime when you can be it's mercy angel and stop it from suffering BEFORE it's alive TO suffer? I can't see how it's better to live and suffer in a lifetime of Hell than not feel anything at all and stop it before it occurs.

I already stated how fucked up the foster cares and adoption homes are, so no need to repeat myself. xD
But yeah all circumstances for me here are okay but after eleven weeks I disagree unless the mother's life is in danger.
And yes Angela sex is made to have children, which is why it should be right for a ten year old girl to have sex without being called a slut or whore, because that is the time when a girl should start her period, the marking of the time she is allowed to be pregnant. It's natural for people to want this but with emotions, intelligence, AND conscious people grew out of the "Sex is only for babies" and incorporated love into it.

Why do women orgasm when it's not needed during sex? Orgasms show peaked pleasure, but a female orgasm is not needed, the male's pre-ejaculation lubricates the vagina and he ejaculates to impregnante. Please answer me this:
Why DO women orgasm?
It's been there with our whole species, yet uneeded. If the body of a natural ways saw it unfit to use then it would have not made this and incorparated it into the female sexual responces.
It shows sex is more than popping watermelons out of a cherry hole.
And with that heightened pleasure, humans tend to bond and want more from their partner. Conscious and emotions have altered sex for many, many, MANY years now.
If you take sex back to it's primitive use then by all means men are naturally allowed to rape women because it's spreading their seeds and allowing the human population to grow.
Thus making rape victims uneligable to get abortions because that baby is needed to expand the human population.
But since the human population is highly established this need to expand has long been gone. It's usually used to satisfy a wanting parent or the sexual needs of someone who wants a big dose of oxytocin.

I thought I'd revive this, it's been dead for awhile. D:
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion: Right or Wrong   Abortion: Right or Wrong I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 30, 2009 1:58 pm

Kiko think it okii too but kiko understands why kara no like it. kara is to motherly, she'd try to take care of all the little not wanted babies DX
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion: Right or Wrong   Abortion: Right or Wrong I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 02, 2009 8:20 pm

i don't know when life begins. i'm a artist, not a scientist. nor do i know whether it's morally right or wrong. i am pro-choice politically however- abortion is a huge decision that should be left up to the person or persons having the child, not me. i know that at this point, i cannot handle a child, so if i do have sex (which i probably never will...6+ years of sex ed has scarred me for life : P) i will probably use about fifty forms of protection, and if that fails i will get an abortion. i don't believe in putting children in foster care senselessly, and i cannot mentally or financially handle the responsibility of a child.

abortion is, ultimately, a choice, and i would feel comfortable knowing i have the option, which is why i'm politically pro-choice. i don't want to deny a woman who knows her environment is not suitable for a child to be denied a choice because i don't agree with it.
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion: Right or Wrong   Abortion: Right or Wrong I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 01, 2010 7:25 pm

Sense this is the opnion spot, im goanna say obartions are wrong. (espcialy for the dumbasses who use coat hangers n shiz). No. Why? Becuase, your taking a life before it could even have one. Technicly no, its not classified as murder, until a certain time, but, it still is. Atleast have it, and put it up for adoption. ATLEAST. What if down the road you decide you wanna have a kid? Tell the kid he could have had an older sibling, but they didnt wanna deal wid it yet, so they killed it? That kinda looks bad on ur half :3. I just got done explaining this to a girl not to long ago. If any of ur bf's wanna do an obartion themselves, coat hanger or punching u in the stomach, so it kills the babi >_>..i will come to there house and shove a potato up there asses. :3
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion: Right or Wrong   Abortion: Right or Wrong I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 02, 2010 4:07 am

"...here in europe there is the morning after pill, so this problem happens less often than in the states..." mentioned the goblin, adding "...and if one bans abortion then one simply sends the problem underground, where not only the patient is then in danger but also she becomes a danger to others through cross infection here..." simply the goblin was for the "each individual solution" to be treated as just that, considering such factors and rape, unsuitability through drugs neglect or violence...", also, it was the goblin\s conjecture that the "morning after" pill would become a controversy in the states now, another contentious issue for politicians then

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion: Right or Wrong   Abortion: Right or Wrong I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 02, 2010 10:33 am

I think that abortion is wrong... but it's their choice...
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion: Right or Wrong   Abortion: Right or Wrong I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 02, 2010 2:10 pm

i won the arguement about keeping the babi ^^...just not all the way..she mite set it up for adoption...I dont get adoption either. if ur goanna have thebabi for 9 months, then wats the point of getting rid of it T.T....9 months of hell, to see it go into someone else's arms. And most of us know how that last part goes.....
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Abortion: Right or Wrong Empty
PostSubject: Re: Abortion: Right or Wrong   Abortion: Right or Wrong I_icon_minitime

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Abortion: Right or Wrong
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